debate

because they dont interest me https://media.tenor.com/images/a8936988ef85dd8cb33d87924fbcf36c/tenor.gif what else is there to debate?

value theory and normative ethics stuff is cool, but metaethical premises involving moral skepticism, i think, have a place prior to any debate about something's value or the way life 'ought' to be lived. i'm almost even to the point where it feels immoral to consider morality definitely existing. help haha

yeah thats why its best to stay away from metaethics xD i prefer applied ethics, because nearly everyone agrees that morals exist and are the good thing already i would debate whether they are subjective or objective, but i think it would be too easy of a debate

@lamby I wouldn't mind debating if human farming is real but not now. Also we stick people in jails, which aren't a whole lot different then what is done to cattle, also you are forced to work in big prisons also, but it's really not that different. Also mentally ill people are studied and tested on like animals but that's a whole other bucket of worms. You can't use domesticated animals as an example of an animal feel emotion as we've breed them into feeling remorse etc. A truly wild animal doesn't understand remorse as it would hamper it in the wilderness. Again cattle, cats, dogs domesticated animals have right/are morally viewed different because they have been breed into society, you can't just take a wild animal into the same scenario a domesticated animal would thrive in. we also do provide laws to protect the habitat of animals, it's very hard to step in and help an animal that is still 'wild' it often doesn't even understand your trying to help it. Cattle don't feel threatened around people (which isn't 100% a good thing) because we have breed them into see us as friends and accepting us. their are tons of place which domesticated deer, and other wild animals, but often they're in large caged in areas where we mostly just interact with them through feedings and cameras, the animal will be sedated and given medical attention regularly to make sure it's healthy, but all in all animal thrive best when we just leave them to do there own thing and don't destroy their habitats. For the record, i'm not a fan of hunting, slaughter house meats etc, and i think we need to do a lot more for wild animals to see them prosper in the long run. I just don't feel that a change in ethics/morals/laws are what animals need. We need more animal reserves, and more laws for HUMANS against how animals are treated and harvested and we need more people actively enforcing such laws. We shouldn't be driving animals out of their homes via forestry and other businesses, we should be protecting the natural world they need to thrive in. if we had all the natural wildlife from a couple hundred years ago still, before we really started deforesting areas etc. we probably wouldn't be farming/processing animals the same, people reproduce far to quick for a planet this size.

i find it strangely obnoxious that most people agree morals *exist*. i like acting within my own moral guidelines, but i still feel like i'm simping for society in some weird way by just being like "yeah that shit exists FOR SURE". like idkkkk kinda skeptical about it haha. i get the feeling like there is a sentient AI race out there that has absolutely no sense of morality somewhere in the universe and they'd think we're crazy for being moral at all and ye if i were more confident in my arguing abilities i'd probably be more interested in debating applied stuff but ppl are so smart and plan out their words and arguments to be valid and sound in advance. that's lameee. i'm a dummy who doesn't think about anything important all day so no fair

@atmousfear Is human farming real? I mean if you count human trafficking i suppose a connection could be drawn, but that's illegal, where as animal farming is not. Technically that's not farming, that's slave labor though. These people arent killed for meat, or bred in the system. Prisons have way more standards than slaughterhouses due, and most slaughterhouses prohibit filming on premises so we cant even properly record the abuse legally. I mean if you had to pick being live stock or being a prisoner, there is no comparison, but I'm also for prison reform, so I'm not sure the point your making with this. Mentally ill people aren't tested anymore like they were. And the ones that still are abide by many, many, many regulatory factors when they do. Way more than animal testing does. Have you ever lived anywhere where cows kinda just wander the land? They aren't passive timid animals all the time, some are aggressive (to protect themselves) so to say we bred them to be 100% docile is not true. Donkeys were also bred by humans but they literally kill wolves and coyotes that try and prey upon sheep or cattle (they're used as guard dogs in some places). Some feral dogs can't be reintroduced into human homes if they have been away for too long. Should we start farming these wild dogs? China has a dog estival where they breed dogs purely for food, is that 100% ethical? You know the biggest killer of animals is? The biggest cause of deforestation? The animal agriculture industry. The same industry you give money to whenever you purchase meat, diary, or eggs. There is no logical reason to not give animals basic moral consideration. They feel pain, fear, happiness, and sadness like we do. They want to live as much as we do.

@frozenxheavens when i think if morals are objective i think of the worst of the worst that we all agree is terrible in no universe is pedophilia moral. in no universe is killing something that wants to live for no reason moral that's my issue. these are all bad things. and i think morals are important. the golden rule. do onto others as you'd have them do onto you. how can you argue that rule isn't a good one?

well yeah that's our human perspective and instinct. we can all agree that having that golden rule mentality is really swell and the way we should go about life, at least to a very good extent. so it IS a good rule. and yes there are all those valid and objectively awful violations of golden rule that are unsightly to imagine as a human (animal slaughter and consumption maybe or maybe not included =p) but that doesn't validate them as existing in the same physical and observable way time, gravity, entropy, etc do. to be so definitive and demanding over something that has fair skepticism seems inappropriate, i guess. i think to truly live with morality one has to always be open to being wrong. no matter how convicted or certain or objective one imagines oneself being

Prisons aren't a nice as you seem to think they are, but this might just be like you said a different view for both of us about the jail system as a whole. I also never claimed any DOMESTICATED animal was docile. if you say an animals been breed to do something, that's a trait/skill/whatever learned through domestication. I also said that domesticated wild animals are often held in large caged in areas (pens or whatever) i was imply the same point you made that some of the wild is still in the animal. I also want to say if needing to kill the animal the eat is immoral than every wild animal is also immoral because they also want to kill other animals just to eat, which would imply that it's acceptable in the animals mind. ------- On a whole other note Lamby have you see any of the news reports about some Swedish scientist who actually suggested we start eating human flesh to held fight climate change, check the links. https://nypost.com/2019/09/09/scientist-suggests-eating-human-flesh-to-fight-climate-change/ https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/scientist-suggests-eating-human-meat-to-tackle-climate-change-a4230561.html https://www.foxnews.com/world/swedish-scientist-eat-human-flesh-climate-change

morals exist the same way time and gravity exists you cant observe them, but you observe the effects of them i believe heavily in the value of individual perception, as well as collective perception. are we real? are we a simulation? these are as important quests to me as 'is morality real?' does it matter? if we are in a simulation what good does knowing do? i have no idea if my reality is reality, but my perception tells me it is, so it is to me does that make sense? its hard to articulate my thoughts sometimes xD